In a spontaneous episode I discussed five different aspects of the business of podcasting – from using AI to “audio or video?”, to leveraging the star power and engagement power of podcasting.
You’ll hear from:
Michael Kaye, Director of Brand & Communications for OkCupid, an online dating app;
Brandon Reed, Host, formerly tired dad, and creator of 12 Hour Sound Machines, a viral podcast that helps people sleep;
Bona Rai, COO and Co-founder of Capsho, the tool that helped E.B. use AI to generate these very show notes (!);
Chris Whitman, Co-founder and Chief Strategy Officer of GlassBox Media, think ‘music label-meets-podcast marketing machine’;
A.J. Feliciano, Head of The Roost Podcast Network from Warner Bros Discovery, that started the groundswell of podcasts leveraging video and has his finger on the pulse of monetizing best practices to meet the consumer where they’re consuming content.
It’s five inspiring chats that reveal the brilliant possibilities of audio and video for the future including:
How OkCupid leverages podcasting for success – earned or owned?
The business model behind the 12 Hour Sound Machines podcast
What Capsho is, and how this new tool taps AI to help podcasters save time
How GlassBox Media cracks the code on growing podcast awareness and ups the value of creator IP
When is a podcast a video and a video a podcast? How should brands embrace the consumer’s content journey? The Roost tells all.
Chapter Summaries/Time Codes:
This is episode 5 of Insider Interviews, with five different guests included. Each of my guests spoke about a different area of the business of podcasting. This was recorded spontaneously right after a panel I conducted during SXSW for Sounds Profitable, featuring one of the panelists and four members of the audio ….
Michael Kaye, director of communications at OkCupid is naturally inclined towards earned, but says: “We’ve seen tremendous impact from both podcast advertising and from earned, pitching our experts to appear on other shows. In 2023, we’ll be looking again at podcast advertising.”
Brandon Reed’s podcast is called 12-Hour Sound Machines. It was created when his newborn couldn’t sleep through the night, now enjoying about 300,000 downloads a day. Reed started by first directly selling to brands, but now he’s on Megaphone, in the Spotify Audience Network so programmatic sales is a really good solution for him. Hear his explanation of why the moments before falling asleep are actually a powerful moment for advertisers….
Bona Rai is a co-founder of Capsho, a product that uses AI to tap audio files to create SEO-optimized content for podcasts. At just 10 months old they’re already embracing a more robust version of Capsho 2.0 coming this Spring.
[Note: I tried out Capsho 1.0 for most of these show notes, with an added “human touch!”]
Chris Whitman describes GlassBox Media like a record label for podcast hosts. Its goal is to grow the value of the IP for the creators across any sort of opportunity from a revenue perspective. “Now we represent around 65 shows, with no end in sight.”
A.J. Feliciano explains that The Roost podcast network is a video-first podcast network. “We have about 90 shows, a third of them are owned and operated. What is it about multiplatform distribution on podcasts that makes it so worthwhile for other podcasters?”
Our thinking around YouTube is that it’s less that it’s about video, and more about the platform itself. Who’s your target audience and where have they been conditioned to go to just consume content? And that’s why we’re seeing podcast-like content bringing such big numbers there.
The Roost podcast will always have a foundation in audio. It can have video, it can be on YouTube. Heck, we might even see a world a year or two where long form content is being distributed on TikTok.
In terms of measurement A.J. says, “A view and a download are counted two separate metrics: A view is :30 seconds of playback on YouTube and then audio download is :60 seconds by unique user. It’s still very much early days and we’re going to have to figure out ways to plug into that back end of YouTube API.” Adding, “We need to properly measure and communicate those returns for the advertising community.
What’s the reason why podcasting is so big today? It’s because Direct Response has used it as their primary tool. There’s money to be had –and we can do a lot better on this front.
One of the things that’s helped us build our business is looking beyond the podcast. If you want to properly tackle YouTube and TikTok and other new platforms that will inevitably join the fray into the future, we really have to almost take the “podcast” out of the center of our universe.
The theme music for Insider Interviews was composed and performed by the incomparable Grammy-winning John Clayton, and this episode was edited by Grace Morton.
Just skim the career path of my first guest for Season 2 of Insider Interviews and you’ll understand why it was worth the wait of my past year on hiatus: It’s Jarl Mohn, former President and CEO of NPR…and E! Entertainment Television, the network he also created!
Jarl’s career includes being hand-picked by former radio buddy, Bob Pittman (currently CEO of iHeart Media), to be the first EVP/GM of MTV and VH1. He also spent many years on the boards of The Annenberg School of Communication and Journalism, the EW Scripps Company and Scripps Networks, and KPCC Southern California Public Radio where he honed his love of public radio.
And, while Jarl hung up his pundit placard to focus on hanging art as he and his wife Pamela endow museums and support emerging artists, his 50+ years in media and venture capital have taught him a thing or two about content and management. He shares 35 minutes of brilliance and humility — from how his years in foster care sparked an escape route to radio, how quality will separate winners and losers in today’s content wars, and how art can literally change the way we think.
We go head to, literally, toe on the big picture of media, right down to why his face is on my feet. Yeah, you’ll have to keep listening for that one. Or watch the video on YouTube, since good content should span all platforms!
The following is a highly edited transcript, including a multitude of links to important resources mentioned.
Career Path – Radio to Television
E.B.:Jarl, you were my first boss in the cable industry.
You started E! Entertainment Television and I was there in the Greg Kinnear and Howard Stern days. Can you share a little chronological route to your career?
Jarl: I began my career as a disc jockey when I was 15 years old. I ended up ultimately, in New York at WNBC doing afternoons when I was 25 then got into the programming side of the business, became a general manager and bought some radio stations. Then one of the people I had worked with at WNBC, Bob Pittman, hired me, along with Tom Preston at MTV and VH1. So, I got into the cable TV business. Then in 1986 we created E! Entertainment Television. I did a stint with John Malone at Liberty Media as CEO of Liberty Digital, which was used to invest in internet companies and some interactive companies. Then venture capital /early stage angel investing for about 16 years.
And then I had been involved in public radio in Los Angeles as a board member of KPCC and had the opportunity to become CEO of NPR nationally, for about six years. I finished up my tour of duty in 2019 and returned to Los Angeles.
Radio as Escape from Foster Care
EB:You shared with me that you had been in a group home in foster care ….
Jarl: It was a very difficult thing to experience. I spend some time with foster youth and young adults in Los Angeles County now and have a chance to talk to a number of them. Almost every one, using different language, wants to know how we survived our PTSD or our trauma. …I hated my existence in that children’s home so much that I discovered radio and listened to it nonstop and fantasized about being one of those cool disc jockeys. So, when I got out at 15, I had a chance to go to engineering school, get my FCC license and began working at a radio station.
EB:Radio is, of course we talk about it as theater of the mind. I just read an amazing memoir called A Place Called Homeby David Ambroz, who actually works at Amazon now, and overcame similar challenges. You both remind us how we all need to support youth so much better and try to improve that world.
The Art of Listening
EB:Jarl, I knew you when you still used your DJ name, Lee Masters…I remember you would regularly walk the halls of E! Entertainment Television, chatting with every employee, every day. That meant the world to everyone I’m still part of the past-employee Facebook group. I even did an episode last season of Insider Interviews with Darren G. Davis who was our department coordinator then and now runs a very successful comic book company called Tidal Wave! So, you really created another family for us.
Jarl: At every company I worked at I found I learned a lot more about what was happening in the company by just walking and asking, ‘what are you working on? What are you getting the biggest kick out of? What are the challenges? And in doing that every day, cumulatively I think it informed me, really helped me do my job better, and it was also a great deal of fun.
EB:You continued that walk the hall approach, but you did it from the skies and the road. Tell us about visiting NPR stations.
Jarl: One of my good friends is also a pilot, and suggested we fly to small NPR stations that no one from corporate had ever visited. We hit 15, 17 stations and got to meet donors and listeners and the station employees and have some great local food. Then I drove from Washington, DC. to Los Angeles and I visited another 20 or more radio stations.
AM/FM Either/Both/Or Public Radio?
EB:A lot of the EV industry folks are saying that AM radio creates interference with electric cars. Are we facing the demise of AM radio?
Jarl: When I made the transition to from AM to FM radio in 1974 if you had asked me the prognosis then I would’ve said everybody had completely written off AM radio at that time. But since then, even recently, there are a number of markets, like Atlanta, where the number one radio station is WSB, an AM radio station. And there are a handful of others. They’re successful because they’re offering something not available anywhere else — whether it’s the Atlanta Braves or a morning personality. [Hear Jarl’s advice on radio programming back in the day.]
But I do think the radio business itself is very, very challenged overall. A lot of it, is self-inflicted wounds, from having commercial loads that are too high, to being very repetitive, and so forth. One of the reasons I love public radio is that it’s providing … news analysis, really audio essays on what’s going on and explaining what’s happened, providing background, some context and storytelling — something different.
I think a lot of the music formats are under siege from Spotify and from satellite radio. The problem is if a lot of people are deserting the broadcast band because of music, your pool of available listeners for an NPR station starts to decline, too. But I think they’re going to hang in a lot longer than anybody else.
EB:You became a member of all 251 NPR stations and got a mug from each one, which are as proudly displayed in your home as your renown art collection!
E.B.: Where you would advise media companies in general on how they need to pivot?
Jarl: What’s happening in the streaming world are these incredible budgets of six, seven, 12 billion a year per company — the economics right now don’t look like they’re working. However, a lot of people seem to enjoy using them. And one of the number one topics of conversations: “What are you watching?” And everybody’s exchanging their lists: “did you see Kaleidoscope on Netflix? Or Slow Horses…? A lot of people are looking at content. The challenge, of course, is how many of these services can you subscribe to?
I believe, regardless of the medium — audio or visual, broadcast radio or podcast, a cable network or on demand, whatever your format or platform, the quality and the differentiation and the uniqueness of what you’re producing is hugely important.
How do you make people aware of what’s available? Really focus on the, the quality of what you’re producing, to make it as interesting and mouthwatering as possible. Good content wins. It’s very expensive to do. That’s why only a few people can do it. (I would also add that I’m not in the trenches every day dealing with this inside a media company like I was when I was. I view it as someone that is kind of close, but not, not in the center anymore.)
Good Content from Diverse Voices
EB:What do you think are the number one or two action steps that any media company or service can really do to help forward DEI and legitimize its brand purpose?
Jarl: I think it’s a hugely important topic for everybody, not just media companies. It’s an issue for museums, for example, which are questioning this historical perspective on white European males in their collection. It’s a huge issue in the art world; the museums aren’t making as much progress as the art world and the galleries are. Some of the new contemporary museums are doing a much better job of doing exhibitions from women and people of color.
I’m not an expert on this, but I think there’s been progress. I think one of the big challenges for every organization has been limited number of people with background or expertise in any particular field, whether it’s broadcast or whether it’s the museum world. And there’s a huge amount of demand for people of color in some of these roles. My personal experience at NPR was bringing people in who were terrific, with a great sensibility, intelligence, doing great work. Now, NPRs a not-for-profit and very quickly somebody comes in and snags them. We’d bring them in, train them in our ways and our sound. And in 18 months or two years, they were off to a much bigger paycheck, which was great for them. But, then you’re back to square one to fill this position. [Hear Insider Interviews Epi 15 with NPR CMO Michael Smith on this topic.]
The Art of Giving
E.B.:You’ve been working to amplify the voices of diverse artists. Can you explain the LAND grants you and your wife, Pamela, have bequeathed?
Jarl: We’ve had the family foundation for 25 years and to have more impact, decided to write fewer checks, but write bigger checks and really get behind projects we really believe in. I’d say 85% of what we do is LA County-based, where we live and it’s around social justice. There are a lot of issues and problems here, but there are also some beautiful things and some beautiful opportunities.
I was chair of the A C L U Southern California for 13 years so that’s a big one. We really believe in civil liberties and the rights of people that really don’t have the kind of representation that they should. We’re in the early stages of figuring out how we’re going to work with foster youth, because of my background. …especially on transition age youths, which is 18 to 24, because a lot of the system ends for them when they get out of high school.
And the arts are really important to me.The Mohn LAND grants is something we just announced with LA Nomadic Division, which does public art. We’re going to do 20 grants over the next five years for emerging artists who have not had any major institution or gallery representation, and who live and work in LA. They’ll create works that will be in their neighborhoods, publicly available, not in a gallery, that will speak to the people in the issues of that community.
We also have been involved for 11 years with the Hammer Museum’s Made in LA exhibition and the Mohn Award for LA emerging artists or under-recognized LA artists. another public not-for-profit space called LAX Art, and of course public radio.
The Art of Creativity
I find art really inspiring and I encourage anybody, regardless of how they feel about it, to try to spend some time with it because it opens up different neural pathways.
Jarl: I always have found if I’m stuck creatively on something, that if I go to a museum and I look at art. I don’t look at a piece of art and go, oh, that makes me think of this, it just, it frees up my mind. I think art is beautiful that way And I’m not just talking about the visual arts. I’m talking about film, music, dance. There are beautiful things happening in culture everywhere.
Also, if I’m really stuck, I like to go look at art that I don’t like, that I don’t understand, that the critics have said great things about, but for whatever reason, doesn’t appeal to me. Because what is it that the people that are far better educated than I am on this subject see in it that I don’t see in it? I find it opens up my mind. If not at that moment it does later. So, my pro tip, for anybody that is in anything creative or has to do problem solving, go to museums regularly and look at stuff and go out of your way to look at things that you might not like.
EB:Well, I think that you also answered one of the rationales for why we need more inclusion and more voices in media, just to bring it full circle, because looking at something that you’re not used to or that doesn’t necessarily resonate with, you could illuminate new ideas as it amplifies fresh voices.
I promised that we would bring it from the head to the toes and just to pay that off, tell everyone why I’m wearing your face on my feet!
Jarl: I don’t want anybody to think I actually had socks made with my face on them. Apparently, they the NPR staff was going to wear these socks for my going away party, but they didn’t arrive until after I had left. So, they were just sitting there. So instead of throwing them out I put it up on Instagram and Facebook and told anybody, if you want a pair let me know. And they went very quickly. I was really surprised, like, who in the world is gonna want these? But it’s just goofy enough that people loved it.
EB:And that turned into “Socktober” like a where’s Waldo and Elf on a shelf meme for a while.
I want to end with a quote from an “All Things Considered” NPR story about happiness.
It said that “if people could change one thing in their lives to be happier, what does the data say? They should choose, they should invest in their relationships with other people.”
So, Jarl, I’d like to say that you’ve made me very happy for joining me and for raising the bar on being a very “humanized” exec who’s made so many people happy.
You can also reach out to be considered for an episode — or suggest questions or a guest — or to have your own bespoke podcast series produced and/or hosted by E.B. Moss. Email us at firstname.lastname@example.org. We’re “hear” for you!
For the past several years, Out of Home advertising (OOH) had back-to-back growth. Then, like so many changes in our daily habits, travel slowed, media habits shifted and signage became less of commodity. But, as Anna Bager, the CEO of the OAAA – the trade association for outdoor advertising recently shared:
Part of that is tempering excitement over new technologies with a focus on society’s heightened need for humanity and real connections. The right strategy helps brands ensure they’re reaching consumers where they are, providing an experience that’s contextual and relevant.
This conversation with Anna expresses the “what’s old is new again” value of OOH and its ability to offer that “where they are” connection with consumers and provides an experience that’s contextual and relevant, privacy-compliant AND hyper-local!
NOTE: It’s a terrific complement to Epi 43 with the CEO of Captivate which focused on how their form of digital place-based advertising — in-elevator media — also had to shift its “place” and pivot during the pandemic. In both cases you’ll hear about the value of both digital engagement and innovation and good old purpose driven messaging. (And if you want to learn about the IAB — Anna’s previous home before her focus on out of home — check out Epi 20 with David Cohen!)
The evolution of OOH from static hiway signs (think Burma Shave!) to interactive digital takeovers (think Times Square!)
How the medium survived the downturn in travel during the peak pandemic months by doubling down on its track record asa public service tool…
How OOH supports both “brand and demand” marketing.
We wrap with Anna’s personal preferences for cool tools of the future!
Marc Kidd, CEO of Captivate, lost sleep thinking about the lost foot traffic in office buildings when the pandemic hit. After all, his company specializes in programming the video screens in elevators. But, this son of famed NCAA football coach, Roy Kidd (as in Roy Kidd Stadium), is not one to panic at fourth down. In our conversation for Epi 43 he shared how Captivate evolved its Digital Out of Home (DOOH) offerings to include home and play locations, with an upswing in results for sales and marketers alike.
“There was a high stakes game on a really bad weather day and I said, ‘Dad, it’s raining, the wind’s blowing. What decision are you going to make about the coin toss?’ He said, ‘You don’t worry about the things you can’t control.’ It has always reminded me that there are things in life you have no control over … like a pandemic.”
Marc is not a stranger to having to pivot. Hear what happened when his college plans to work alongside his dad got waylaid… and he briefly considered accounting for a career! Luckily, he found his footing in sports marketing…then broadcasting, giving him the foundation for a storied career that included helping create the NCAA corporate partner program and the Breeders Cup’s World Thoroughbred Championships, WAC corporate partner programs and iHigh.com.
Now at Captivate, he had some tough calls to make in the past two years for the greater good, but like all boats when the tide rises he ultimately helped the elevator advertising business stay the course through more innovation.
Listen and learn about:
How Captivate transfigured awkward social spaces!
The evolution of DOOH (Digital Out of Home) itself and its use in brand and awareness marketing
The guiding path to advertising effectiveness and strategizing content
QR codes and other ways of building real attribution
How COVID-19 disruption prompted forward-thinking repositioning
Captivate’s 2022 plans, including re-engineered programmatic platforms
You can also reach out to be considered for an episode — or suggest questions or a guest — or to have your own bespoke podcast series produced and/or hosted by E.B. Moss. Email us at email@example.com. We’re “hear” for you!
Podcast pro Steve Pratt, VP and Co-Founder of the multi-award winning Pacific Content, told me his company no longer makes branded podcasts. They haven’t for a few years. They make “original podcasts with brands.” And win awards doing it for brands like Ford Motor Company, Rocket Mortgage, Morgan Stanley, Slack, and Red Hat.
The difference? These are no “thinly veiled infomercials. Instead, Pacific Content works together with their partners to “make a show that’s designed as something that only that brand can make; you give a gift — or create a significant amount of value — for the people that the brand wants to have relationships with.” And that, says Pratt, is how and why a brand makes a show that solves for their specific business problem, AND makes them into “media companies,” too.
But don’t forget about the marketing. Good content that isn’t salesy has to go hand in hand with good marketing that doesn’t just try to “interrupt.” So, excuse me (!), but marketers should listen to this informative conversation all about connecting the dots between business objectives and audience preferences via podcasting. Steve should know: his company of “50 passionate podcast nerds” is focused exclusively on original podcasts that promote brands with authenticity and without compromising quality.
Steve and I also discuss:
How Dell Technologies’ podcast, Trailblazers with Walter Isaacson, became a “masterclass” on disruption and innovation, and sold listeners on Dell without selling products (and you can hear Dell Global Marketer, Rachael Henke, talk about this in Epi 6 from 5/20!)
Creating a branded podcast strategy like a Venn Diagram between business goals and listener interests
How podcasts drive loyalty
Opportunities for “brands as media companies”
Branded podcasts vs. Advertising in another podcast: What’s the litmus test? (And when Steve suggests brands call Bart Roselli at VeritoneOne, per episode 41 on effective ad campaigns!)
Establishing marketing effectiveness in podcasting
Success measurement tactics and KPIs
And, since Pacific Content gives good content themselves, don’t miss Steve’s own musings on the future of podcasting, how he did on his 2021 predictions made in our friend James Cridland’s show…and what he’s projecting for 2022!
A milestone! It’s Episode 40 of Insider Interviews! And for that, who better to interview than Cadillac’s Global Chief Marketing Officer, Melissa Grady Dias, who is, herself, marketing a milestone: the launch of what will be the first all electric line of luxury brand vehicles (EVs), starting with the Lyriq!
This episode was recorded in September, and since then the new Lyriq has sold out of pre-sale reservations. So how did it get so popular? Why is Cadillac “the maverick” of the GM brands, and how does its marketing deliver on its corporate parent’s promise to be the most inclusive company in the world?
For the past two years, Melissa Grady Dias has held the key. She is a marketer’s marketer, a master of math and of insight-driven creative. With a heart. That “brand and demand” combo (as I’ll write more about in The Continuum) is what’s helped infuse those corporate cause-oriented values into everything from gaming tie-ins to 6-second ads, to experiential marketing with Michelin-rated chefs. To hear Melissa be moved by the definition of equity and inclusion is to understand what “drives” (sorry) much of the brand messaging, but messaging that is always backed by data.
As she explains:
“I try to understand how and where my audience is consuming media, and how they’re entertaining themselves. Then I try to be in those places, but to do it in a different way, so that it really breaks through.”
While always in pursuit of an advertising career, (“I used to watch Who’s the Boss and I loved Angela and I wanted to be like her,” she confesses) Melissa almost took a wrong turn. But discovering Database, Direct, and e-Commerce studies in a Masters program led her to expertise in performance marketing and technology. Her passion for good creative added the rest of the fuel.
After discussing how she “followed her career north star to OnStar” we took some deep dives into how she is marketing the 125-year old brand, including:
What it means to “show up differently” and how the Cadillac marketing team approaches the funnel differently, too (hint: upside down!)
With GM looking to go all EV and towards a 0, 0, 0 world (zero emissions, zero crashes, and zero congestion) how Cadillac, historically an innovator brand, is at the forefront of that effort:
Just why Cadillac overall — from the Escalade to the XT6 — is like the maverick of GM brands, while still infused with corporate cause-oriented values.
“Cadillac is also a bit of a maverick and we’ve always stood for those people who really have big dreams and bold ambitions, but really they’re the change-makers.”
Melissa’s reaction to CEO Mary Barra’s statement on making GM one of the most inclusive companies in the world, and how they’re doing that — on social, in a campaign or in how they’re spending money;
“Equity is treating everyone the same and fairly. So if there’s a dance everyone’s invited to the dance. Inclusion is being asked to dance.”
“When Regina King heard the brand manifesto, she could relate it to her story. And …it inspires me to be a better person, too. That’s how the “Never Stop Arriving” campaign was born: it’s about hitting a moment, celebrating yourself and then thinking ‘Now, how do I keep making the world better? How am I going to keep moving forward?’”
How they identify prospects and find them, starting with addressable and digital then filling in as they go up the funnel, right to tentpole events like their Oscars™ or PGA sponsorships;
Melissa’s perspective on audience demographics “I’m never saying, ‘where are the 25-54 year olds with a certain income’” and feelings about linear TV to podcasts…even their innovative use of gaming and AR and VR as part of the sales process;
(Note – Take a look at Cadillac Live for a unique view of how vehicles can be experienced in our showroom and supply-chain challenged times! And fun fact: More test drives happen on YouTube than in a car dealership! So hear how Cadillac Live deployed a takeover with a “first” on the video site!)
Hear how data is handled and respected and leveraged;
How experiential comes to life in unexpected ways, like finding inspiration in the Lyriq grill for food recipes!;
How future CMOs can follow a similar path to success? Melissa shares a three-point plan of action which, of course, starts with follow your passion.
Finally, hear why my heart was pounding – as with most people who experience Super Cruise for the first time – but in my case just from watching their effective long-form celebrity videos about the hands-free driving option! Melissa has described this as the “let go” moment.
As voiced by Tiffany Haddish in the video, “Sometimes you gotta grab the wheel and sometimes you just have to let it go.” It’s trust that you’ll get where you need to be. Melissa, who makes it a point to meditate daily, thinks her personal mantra – ‘I’m exactly where I’m supposed to be’ – “ties into that idea pretty well.”
Easter Egg Moment: Insider Interviews aims to give you the “insider scoop” on media, marketing and advertising, along with the personal side of execs. And you’ll catch a very human moment around 20 minutes in…. But do enjoy all 40 minutes of this informative and jam packed conversation!
If you found this helpful, feel free to help support ANOTHER 40 episodes of Insider Interviews and add to my virtual tip jar to “buy me a coffee“: https://buymeacoffee.com/mossappeal
And please support us with a review wherever you listen, share this episode. Or allow me to help you get started with a podcast or content marketing strategy: firstname.lastname@example.org.
Connect with E.B. Moss and Insider Interviews at Moss Appeal and on: