In a spontaneous episode I discussed five different aspects of the business of podcasting – from using AI to “audio or video?”, to leveraging the star power and engagement power of podcasting.
You’ll hear from:
Michael Kaye, Director of Brand & Communications for OkCupid, an online dating app;
Brandon Reed, Host, formerly tired dad, and creator of 12 Hour Sound Machines, a viral podcast that helps people sleep;
Bona Rai, COO and Co-founder of Capsho, the tool that helped E.B. use AI to generate these very show notes (!);
Chris Whitman, Co-founder and Chief Strategy Officer of GlassBox Media, think ‘music label-meets-podcast marketing machine’;
A.J. Feliciano, Head of The Roost Podcast Network from Warner Bros Discovery, that started the groundswell of podcasts leveraging video and has his finger on the pulse of monetizing best practices to meet the consumer where they’re consuming content.
It’s five inspiring chats that reveal the brilliant possibilities of audio and video for the future including:
How OkCupid leverages podcasting for success – earned or owned?
The business model behind the 12 Hour Sound Machines podcast
What Capsho is, and how this new tool taps AI to help podcasters save time
How GlassBox Media cracks the code on growing podcast awareness and ups the value of creator IP
When is a podcast a video and a video a podcast? How should brands embrace the consumer’s content journey? The Roost tells all.
Chapter Summaries/Time Codes:
This is episode 5 of Insider Interviews, with five different guests included. Each of my guests spoke about a different area of the business of podcasting. This was recorded spontaneously right after a panel I conducted during SXSW for Sounds Profitable, featuring one of the panelists and four members of the audio ….
Michael Kaye, director of communications at OkCupid is naturally inclined towards earned, but says: “We’ve seen tremendous impact from both podcast advertising and from earned, pitching our experts to appear on other shows. In 2023, we’ll be looking again at podcast advertising.”
Brandon Reed’s podcast is called 12-Hour Sound Machines. It was created when his newborn couldn’t sleep through the night, now enjoying about 300,000 downloads a day. Reed started by first directly selling to brands, but now he’s on Megaphone, in the Spotify Audience Network so programmatic sales is a really good solution for him. Hear his explanation of why the moments before falling asleep are actually a powerful moment for advertisers….
Bona Rai is a co-founder of Capsho, a product that uses AI to tap audio files to create SEO-optimized content for podcasts. At just 10 months old they’re already embracing a more robust version of Capsho 2.0 coming this Spring.
[Note: I tried out Capsho 1.0 for most of these show notes, with an added “human touch!”]
Chris Whitman describes GlassBox Media like a record label for podcast hosts. Its goal is to grow the value of the IP for the creators across any sort of opportunity from a revenue perspective. “Now we represent around 65 shows, with no end in sight.”
A.J. Feliciano explains that The Roost podcast network is a video-first podcast network. “We have about 90 shows, a third of them are owned and operated. What is it about multiplatform distribution on podcasts that makes it so worthwhile for other podcasters?”
Our thinking around YouTube is that it’s less that it’s about video, and more about the platform itself. Who’s your target audience and where have they been conditioned to go to just consume content? And that’s why we’re seeing podcast-like content bringing such big numbers there.
The Roost podcast will always have a foundation in audio. It can have video, it can be on YouTube. Heck, we might even see a world a year or two where long form content is being distributed on TikTok.
In terms of measurement A.J. says, “A view and a download are counted two separate metrics: A view is :30 seconds of playback on YouTube and then audio download is :60 seconds by unique user. It’s still very much early days and we’re going to have to figure out ways to plug into that back end of YouTube API.” Adding, “We need to properly measure and communicate those returns for the advertising community.
What’s the reason why podcasting is so big today? It’s because Direct Response has used it as their primary tool. There’s money to be had –and we can do a lot better on this front.
One of the things that’s helped us build our business is looking beyond the podcast. If you want to properly tackle YouTube and TikTok and other new platforms that will inevitably join the fray into the future, we really have to almost take the “podcast” out of the center of our universe.
The theme music for Insider Interviews was composed and performed by the incomparable Grammy-winning John Clayton, and this episode was edited by Grace Morton.
Pierre Bouvard has some words of wisdom for media buyers out there…if you’re not buying audio (yes, all audio), you’re leaving reach and engagement on the table. As Chief Insights Officer at Cumulus Media/Westwood One, Pierre has seen the proof and has busted the myths surrounding audio advertising—and particularly the misconceptions about AM/FM radio.
“Radio is perceived as much smaller than it really is. But the data tells us that ad-supported AM-FM streaming is actually bigger than ad-supported Pandora and Spotify combined. That blows people away.”
After stints at Coleman Insights and TiVo, he has become the audio industry’s most revered evangelist and research mind. Now leading Westwood One’s full-service advisory—the Audio Active Group—he provides advertisers with media planning recommendations, creative best practices, and measurement services.
This episode will certainly delight the research aficionados—and may just convince the audio skeptics. We also dig into:
What we mean when we say ‘audio.’ Pierre breaks down the composition of the entire audio universe.
Tactical scoop about media planning tactics and why an omnichannel approach works best.
What the heck is ‘eyes on glass’ and what does it tell us about the effectiveness of TV?
Pierre’s pragmatic POV on brand purpose reminds brands to go back to basics.
While he does a lot of work recommending media, he drops some facts on why creative trumps everything.
Why it’s time for advertisers to stop testing and start committing budgets to podcast advertising. (Learn about the “5% rule”!)
Plus, hear the story of how Pierre ‘broke the internet’ and E.B.’s voice impression of Bette Midler… Just sayin’.
This was a fun (and extremely informative) conversation. I hope this inspires you to learn more about the power of audio advertising.
Did you know there’s a lot more to Danone than Dannon? Do you know the definition of a B Corp? Oat or Soy… or a new low-sugar non-dairy milk?
Linda Bethea, Head of Marketing for Danone North America—a top 15 Food and Beverage company in the US—gives us the insider’s scoop on all of the above and how she markets all TWENTY of Danone’s brands. She is shaping the marketing strategy for some of the most loved CPG products in the country—from Danimals to Evian Water and (my personal favorite) Stok Coffee.
Since Danone is the country’s LARGEST B Corp (listen and learn!), we explore the role of brand purpose in marketing today. Something that runs deep at Danone, going back half a century when the CEO started the concept of a “Dual Project” where companies care about societal value as much as shareholder value.
Consumers want brands that take a stand and have a strong point of view. Building brands with purpose that positively impact the world is core to everything we do at Danone.
Linda has enjoyed an impressive marketing career across CPG categories, from potato chips to liquor, and now leads a massive team that’s moving the Danone name into the future. That means pushing the envelope on product development, navigating the ever-changing marketing landscape, and finding unique brand partnerships that align with the corporate mission… all while continuing to “delight” consumers.
Heads up, there will be a lot of (brand)name-dropping in this episode!
Linda and I get into:
How consumer tastes and trends drive innovation and marketing creativity
Linda’s path from soda to spirits to spirited field work that that supercharged her path to leadership and taught her how to negotiate and get things done
Cool ways Danone is raising the sustainability bar, like rescuing fruit and repurposing bottles into shoes…and how those efforts influenced her home life
Her definition of brand purpose and how proper marketing of it impacts consumer choice and company values
What’ my on my plate as an ova-lacto-pesce-vegetarian, and is the demand for plant-based foods today just a trend or…?
Why she’s bullish on audio when it comes to winning the consumer attention game (this will really resonate when you catch my NEXT podcast interview — with Pierre Bouvard, Head of Research for Cumulus Westwood One!)
How she earned the nickname of The Velvet Hammer…
And…what Linda reads and watches with her 13-year-old daughter that makes her a better parent.
She’s smart, and inspiring and mission-driven. Don’t miss this conversation with a conscientious consumer marketer and leader.
Read about the impact of dairy and what Danone is doing to reduce methane. And see their new campaign for Silk “NextMilk”, designed to inspire the next generation of milk drinkers, but made from plants and with 75% less sugar.
The #whosnext campaign features plant-based enthusiasts such as Brooklyn Beckham, Sailor Brinkley-Cook, and Myles O’Neal donning their best Silk ‘stache and inviting others to join them.
How an unconventional journey to the C-suite of major ad agencies led to finding personal brand purpose
I remember Mary Baglivo in our Rutgers days as fun but focused. Yup, there are stories I can tell. But the stories we focus on in this episode are how she turned her intellectual curiosity, which skewed more to classes in Art History than Business, into a career that included running three major ad agencies and earning innumerable industry accolades.
An aspiring writer trying to make it in New York, Mary took a job at an ad agency. While learning on the go she caught the advertising bug, so much so that she moved from Madison Avenue to grad school followed by an ad agency gig in the Windy City that she couldn’t refuse.
That determination, and a knack for helping develop distinctive ad campaigns and insight-based marketing strategies, was recognized pretty quickly and helped her thrive in a male-dominated industry. She ultimately held President and C-level positions at leading global advertising agencies like JWT, Saatchi & Saatchi, and Euro RSCG Chicago.
“Defining a ‘brand’ is challenging. Clarifying your own brand is super important. A brand is more than its product attributes, obviously. It’s more than what it looks like. It’s certainly more than what an influencer portrays. It’s definitely got to be emotional, and probably involve all the senses in some way, shape, or form.”
After years of developing consumer brands like credit cards and cereal, Mary found her personal brand purpose – using her marketing expertise to help universities, museums, and foundations communicate their purpose. Now, in addition to running the Baglivo Group – with a focus on key client Pace University – she is a sitting board member for multiple organizations, including the New York Women’s Foundation, and is intent on lifting up other women in business!
“The key job of a CEO is to make sure that their people are feeling good, are happy and motivated, and have the opportunities to learn.”
Mary and I dig into:
An explanation of brand purpose and how it differs from but informs brand identity
The moving target elements today of a solid brand campaign
The increased consumer mandate for purpose and ESG and the question of how/if that can be marketed
Can a person be a “brand” and how that applies to good leadership.
The best advice she received as a leader
How observing and working for people like “the most powerful woman in advertising,” Charlotte Beers, shaped her own leadership style and career
Her work with the Block and its impact on diversity messaging through art
The time and place for AI – yes, even in classrooms.
Just skim the career path of my first guest for Season 2 of Insider Interviews and you’ll understand why it was worth the wait of my past year on hiatus: It’s Jarl Mohn, former President and CEO of NPR…and E! Entertainment Television, the network he also created!
Jarl’s career includes being hand-picked by former radio buddy, Bob Pittman (currently CEO of iHeart Media), to be the first EVP/GM of MTV and VH1. He also spent many years on the boards of The Annenberg School of Communication and Journalism, the EW Scripps Company and Scripps Networks, and KPCC Southern California Public Radio where he honed his love of public radio.
And, while Jarl hung up his pundit placard to focus on hanging art as he and his wife Pamela endow museums and support emerging artists, his 50+ years in media and venture capital have taught him a thing or two about content and management. He shares 35 minutes of brilliance and humility — from how his years in foster care sparked an escape route to radio, how quality will separate winners and losers in today’s content wars, and how art can literally change the way we think.
We go head to, literally, toe on the big picture of media, right down to why his face is on my feet. Yeah, you’ll have to keep listening for that one. Or watch the video on YouTube, since good content should span all platforms!
The following is a highly edited transcript, including a multitude of links to important resources mentioned.
Career Path – Radio to Television
E.B.:Jarl, you were my first boss in the cable industry.
You started E! Entertainment Television and I was there in the Greg Kinnear and Howard Stern days. Can you share a little chronological route to your career?
Jarl: I began my career as a disc jockey when I was 15 years old. I ended up ultimately, in New York at WNBC doing afternoons when I was 25 then got into the programming side of the business, became a general manager and bought some radio stations. Then one of the people I had worked with at WNBC, Bob Pittman, hired me, along with Tom Preston at MTV and VH1. So, I got into the cable TV business. Then in 1986 we created E! Entertainment Television. I did a stint with John Malone at Liberty Media as CEO of Liberty Digital, which was used to invest in internet companies and some interactive companies. Then venture capital /early stage angel investing for about 16 years.
And then I had been involved in public radio in Los Angeles as a board member of KPCC and had the opportunity to become CEO of NPR nationally, for about six years. I finished up my tour of duty in 2019 and returned to Los Angeles.
Radio as Escape from Foster Care
EB:You shared with me that you had been in a group home in foster care ….
Jarl: It was a very difficult thing to experience. I spend some time with foster youth and young adults in Los Angeles County now and have a chance to talk to a number of them. Almost every one, using different language, wants to know how we survived our PTSD or our trauma. …I hated my existence in that children’s home so much that I discovered radio and listened to it nonstop and fantasized about being one of those cool disc jockeys. So, when I got out at 15, I had a chance to go to engineering school, get my FCC license and began working at a radio station.
EB:Radio is, of course we talk about it as theater of the mind. I just read an amazing memoir called A Place Called Homeby David Ambroz, who actually works at Amazon now, and overcame similar challenges. You both remind us how we all need to support youth so much better and try to improve that world.
The Art of Listening
EB:Jarl, I knew you when you still used your DJ name, Lee Masters…I remember you would regularly walk the halls of E! Entertainment Television, chatting with every employee, every day. That meant the world to everyone I’m still part of the past-employee Facebook group. I even did an episode last season of Insider Interviews with Darren G. Davis who was our department coordinator then and now runs a very successful comic book company called Tidal Wave! So, you really created another family for us.
Jarl: At every company I worked at I found I learned a lot more about what was happening in the company by just walking and asking, ‘what are you working on? What are you getting the biggest kick out of? What are the challenges? And in doing that every day, cumulatively I think it informed me, really helped me do my job better, and it was also a great deal of fun.
EB:You continued that walk the hall approach, but you did it from the skies and the road. Tell us about visiting NPR stations.
Jarl: One of my good friends is also a pilot, and suggested we fly to small NPR stations that no one from corporate had ever visited. We hit 15, 17 stations and got to meet donors and listeners and the station employees and have some great local food. Then I drove from Washington, DC. to Los Angeles and I visited another 20 or more radio stations.
AM/FM Either/Both/Or Public Radio?
EB:A lot of the EV industry folks are saying that AM radio creates interference with electric cars. Are we facing the demise of AM radio?
Jarl: When I made the transition to from AM to FM radio in 1974 if you had asked me the prognosis then I would’ve said everybody had completely written off AM radio at that time. But since then, even recently, there are a number of markets, like Atlanta, where the number one radio station is WSB, an AM radio station. And there are a handful of others. They’re successful because they’re offering something not available anywhere else — whether it’s the Atlanta Braves or a morning personality. [Hear Jarl’s advice on radio programming back in the day.]
But I do think the radio business itself is very, very challenged overall. A lot of it, is self-inflicted wounds, from having commercial loads that are too high, to being very repetitive, and so forth. One of the reasons I love public radio is that it’s providing … news analysis, really audio essays on what’s going on and explaining what’s happened, providing background, some context and storytelling — something different.
I think a lot of the music formats are under siege from Spotify and from satellite radio. The problem is if a lot of people are deserting the broadcast band because of music, your pool of available listeners for an NPR station starts to decline, too. But I think they’re going to hang in a lot longer than anybody else.
EB:You became a member of all 251 NPR stations and got a mug from each one, which are as proudly displayed in your home as your renown art collection!
E.B.: Where you would advise media companies in general on how they need to pivot?
Jarl: What’s happening in the streaming world are these incredible budgets of six, seven, 12 billion a year per company — the economics right now don’t look like they’re working. However, a lot of people seem to enjoy using them. And one of the number one topics of conversations: “What are you watching?” And everybody’s exchanging their lists: “did you see Kaleidoscope on Netflix? Or Slow Horses…? A lot of people are looking at content. The challenge, of course, is how many of these services can you subscribe to?
I believe, regardless of the medium — audio or visual, broadcast radio or podcast, a cable network or on demand, whatever your format or platform, the quality and the differentiation and the uniqueness of what you’re producing is hugely important.
How do you make people aware of what’s available? Really focus on the, the quality of what you’re producing, to make it as interesting and mouthwatering as possible. Good content wins. It’s very expensive to do. That’s why only a few people can do it. (I would also add that I’m not in the trenches every day dealing with this inside a media company like I was when I was. I view it as someone that is kind of close, but not, not in the center anymore.)
Good Content from Diverse Voices
EB:What do you think are the number one or two action steps that any media company or service can really do to help forward DEI and legitimize its brand purpose?
Jarl: I think it’s a hugely important topic for everybody, not just media companies. It’s an issue for museums, for example, which are questioning this historical perspective on white European males in their collection. It’s a huge issue in the art world; the museums aren’t making as much progress as the art world and the galleries are. Some of the new contemporary museums are doing a much better job of doing exhibitions from women and people of color.
I’m not an expert on this, but I think there’s been progress. I think one of the big challenges for every organization has been limited number of people with background or expertise in any particular field, whether it’s broadcast or whether it’s the museum world. And there’s a huge amount of demand for people of color in some of these roles. My personal experience at NPR was bringing people in who were terrific, with a great sensibility, intelligence, doing great work. Now, NPRs a not-for-profit and very quickly somebody comes in and snags them. We’d bring them in, train them in our ways and our sound. And in 18 months or two years, they were off to a much bigger paycheck, which was great for them. But, then you’re back to square one to fill this position. [Hear Insider Interviews Epi 15 with NPR CMO Michael Smith on this topic.]
The Art of Giving
E.B.:You’ve been working to amplify the voices of diverse artists. Can you explain the LAND grants you and your wife, Pamela, have bequeathed?
Jarl: We’ve had the family foundation for 25 years and to have more impact, decided to write fewer checks, but write bigger checks and really get behind projects we really believe in. I’d say 85% of what we do is LA County-based, where we live and it’s around social justice. There are a lot of issues and problems here, but there are also some beautiful things and some beautiful opportunities.
I was chair of the A C L U Southern California for 13 years so that’s a big one. We really believe in civil liberties and the rights of people that really don’t have the kind of representation that they should. We’re in the early stages of figuring out how we’re going to work with foster youth, because of my background. …especially on transition age youths, which is 18 to 24, because a lot of the system ends for them when they get out of high school.
And the arts are really important to me.The Mohn LAND grants is something we just announced with LA Nomadic Division, which does public art. We’re going to do 20 grants over the next five years for emerging artists who have not had any major institution or gallery representation, and who live and work in LA. They’ll create works that will be in their neighborhoods, publicly available, not in a gallery, that will speak to the people in the issues of that community.
We also have been involved for 11 years with the Hammer Museum’s Made in LA exhibition and the Mohn Award for LA emerging artists or under-recognized LA artists. another public not-for-profit space called LAX Art, and of course public radio.
The Art of Creativity
I find art really inspiring and I encourage anybody, regardless of how they feel about it, to try to spend some time with it because it opens up different neural pathways.
Jarl: I always have found if I’m stuck creatively on something, that if I go to a museum and I look at art. I don’t look at a piece of art and go, oh, that makes me think of this, it just, it frees up my mind. I think art is beautiful that way And I’m not just talking about the visual arts. I’m talking about film, music, dance. There are beautiful things happening in culture everywhere.
Also, if I’m really stuck, I like to go look at art that I don’t like, that I don’t understand, that the critics have said great things about, but for whatever reason, doesn’t appeal to me. Because what is it that the people that are far better educated than I am on this subject see in it that I don’t see in it? I find it opens up my mind. If not at that moment it does later. So, my pro tip, for anybody that is in anything creative or has to do problem solving, go to museums regularly and look at stuff and go out of your way to look at things that you might not like.
EB:Well, I think that you also answered one of the rationales for why we need more inclusion and more voices in media, just to bring it full circle, because looking at something that you’re not used to or that doesn’t necessarily resonate with, you could illuminate new ideas as it amplifies fresh voices.
I promised that we would bring it from the head to the toes and just to pay that off, tell everyone why I’m wearing your face on my feet!
Jarl: I don’t want anybody to think I actually had socks made with my face on them. Apparently, they the NPR staff was going to wear these socks for my going away party, but they didn’t arrive until after I had left. So, they were just sitting there. So instead of throwing them out I put it up on Instagram and Facebook and told anybody, if you want a pair let me know. And they went very quickly. I was really surprised, like, who in the world is gonna want these? But it’s just goofy enough that people loved it.
EB:And that turned into “Socktober” like a where’s Waldo and Elf on a shelf meme for a while.
I want to end with a quote from an “All Things Considered” NPR story about happiness.
It said that “if people could change one thing in their lives to be happier, what does the data say? They should choose, they should invest in their relationships with other people.”
So, Jarl, I’d like to say that you’ve made me very happy for joining me and for raising the bar on being a very “humanized” exec who’s made so many people happy.
You can also reach out to be considered for an episode — or suggest questions or a guest — or to have your own bespoke podcast series produced and/or hosted by E.B. Moss. Email us at email@example.com. We’re “hear” for you!
For the past 44 episodes of Insider Interviews I’ve put a lot of well-known media and marketing folks in the hot seat …And today’s guest is … E.B. Moss. Me. Because as we ring out the old and ring in the new I’ve got some news for you.
This nice round number, episode 45, will be temporarily one of the last for Insider Interviews for a while, as I embrace something really new. A fractional (year long) assignment as Senior Vice President of Content and Community at Brand Innovators. They create a community for marketers and and media folks through an incredible number of events and panel discussions, fireside chats, activations, tent poles, content articles, you name it.
In looking back to look forward, as I wrote in The Continuum recently, I had some wonderful conversations. After launching with programming pro, Gary Krantz, talking about audio and the evolution of radio and podcasting my very next episode was in March of 2020 was Shelly Palmer, the pundit, who accurately predicted that we all better have our tech set up well to work from home. Check.
In episode 7, Claude Silver, the Chief Heart Officer of Vayner Media, emphasized the need in our increasingly isolated environment to build relationships. And then Arra Yerganian educated us in episode 22, about the social determinants of health as we’re so impacted by our surroundings. (I hope you’re creating a safe space for yourself and finding ways to bring joy into your world, even as we have to isolate a little bit longer now.)
On the DEI front Robyn Streisand, founder of The Mixx, is doing a terrific job at educating brands on how to embrace diverse communities and market authentically. And then, hats off to KoAnn Skrzyniarz, for building Sustainable Brands and emphasizing brand purpose and the business value of embracing sustainability and purpose-driven messaging.
Talk about influencers.
That’s what Danielle Wiley of Sway did and really informed us about how to manage what’s been influential and what hasn’t. And it all kind comes together with Joe Jackman in episode 37, talking about reinvention. Because that’s what we’re all doing these days. Marc Kidd and Anna Bager each talked about the out of home ad industry and their headaches during a time when nobody was traveling. Captivate, where Marc is CEO, specialized in elevator advertising, and no one was going into office buildings! So they figured out how to pivot — or reinvent — by expanding their signage to places where people play and live like golf courses and apartment buildings. Anna Bager talked about how out of home signage really helped move public service messaging forward, especially with the healthcare messaging that is so important these days.
There were also some really impactful conversations with women in marketing. I want to thank, for example, Melissa Grady, the CMO of Cadillac, as well as Heidi Zak, the co-founder and CEO of third love, as just two examples.
And I was able to do articles on both of them for The Continuum. That’s the publication where I was editor in chief for the past year. We published some excellent articles about the need for both brand and demand marketing. That publication will continue to embrace the future. And it’s a very worthy read.
But I think as I look forward, and look back, some of Ruth Steven’s words were exactly right and underscores why my move to Brand Innovators will be so timely. Ruth is one of the foremost experts in B2B marketing.
And she said in our interview,
“Today, the ability of the salesperson to guide a purchase in the buyer’s direction and really understand the needs of that buyer has been eroded. So the marketer needs to step in and provide the educational content.”
So my friends, I’m going to keep finding lots of ways to help marketers get their message out and to help connect the seller, the buyer, the media organization and the marketer, and I look forward to being able to continue delivering you that insider scoop. Just from a different venue.
With that, I wish you all the very, very best and a happy and especially a healthy 2022, and hope to maintain my relationship with all of you through various forms of content, as well as hopefully at in-person event sooner rather than later.
I thank you so much for listening.
Post Script: If you haven’t heard it yet, I will pick up my “passion podcast” soon – about my “friends in high places” so please subscribe to It’s Quite a Living now to not miss a forthcoming moment when that relaunches in early 2022.
PPS: You can STILL follow me at @mossappeal on social media!