In a spontaneous episode I discussed five different aspects of the business of podcasting – from using AI to “audio or video?”, to leveraging the star power and engagement power of podcasting.
You’ll hear from:
Michael Kaye, Director of Brand & Communications for OkCupid, an online dating app;
Brandon Reed, Host, formerly tired dad, and creator of 12 Hour Sound Machines, a viral podcast that helps people sleep;
Bona Rai, COO and Co-founder of Capsho, the tool that helped E.B. use AI to generate these very show notes (!);
Chris Whitman, Co-founder and Chief Strategy Officer of GlassBox Media, think ‘music label-meets-podcast marketing machine’;
A.J. Feliciano, Head of The Roost Podcast Network from Warner Bros Discovery, that started the groundswell of podcasts leveraging video and has his finger on the pulse of monetizing best practices to meet the consumer where they’re consuming content.
It’s five inspiring chats that reveal the brilliant possibilities of audio and video for the future including:
How OkCupid leverages podcasting for success – earned or owned?
The business model behind the 12 Hour Sound Machines podcast
What Capsho is, and how this new tool taps AI to help podcasters save time
How GlassBox Media cracks the code on growing podcast awareness and ups the value of creator IP
When is a podcast a video and a video a podcast? How should brands embrace the consumer’s content journey? The Roost tells all.
Chapter Summaries/Time Codes:
This is episode 5 of Insider Interviews, with five different guests included. Each of my guests spoke about a different area of the business of podcasting. This was recorded spontaneously right after a panel I conducted during SXSW for Sounds Profitable, featuring one of the panelists and four members of the audio ….
Michael Kaye, director of communications at OkCupid is naturally inclined towards earned, but says: “We’ve seen tremendous impact from both podcast advertising and from earned, pitching our experts to appear on other shows. In 2023, we’ll be looking again at podcast advertising.”
Brandon Reed’s podcast is called 12-Hour Sound Machines. It was created when his newborn couldn’t sleep through the night, now enjoying about 300,000 downloads a day. Reed started by first directly selling to brands, but now he’s on Megaphone, in the Spotify Audience Network so programmatic sales is a really good solution for him. Hear his explanation of why the moments before falling asleep are actually a powerful moment for advertisers….
Bona Rai is a co-founder of Capsho, a product that uses AI to tap audio files to create SEO-optimized content for podcasts. At just 10 months old they’re already embracing a more robust version of Capsho 2.0 coming this Spring.
[Note: I tried out Capsho 1.0 for most of these show notes, with an added “human touch!”]
Chris Whitman describes GlassBox Media like a record label for podcast hosts. Its goal is to grow the value of the IP for the creators across any sort of opportunity from a revenue perspective. “Now we represent around 65 shows, with no end in sight.”
A.J. Feliciano explains that The Roost podcast network is a video-first podcast network. “We have about 90 shows, a third of them are owned and operated. What is it about multiplatform distribution on podcasts that makes it so worthwhile for other podcasters?”
Our thinking around YouTube is that it’s less that it’s about video, and more about the platform itself. Who’s your target audience and where have they been conditioned to go to just consume content? And that’s why we’re seeing podcast-like content bringing such big numbers there.
The Roost podcast will always have a foundation in audio. It can have video, it can be on YouTube. Heck, we might even see a world a year or two where long form content is being distributed on TikTok.
In terms of measurement A.J. says, “A view and a download are counted two separate metrics: A view is :30 seconds of playback on YouTube and then audio download is :60 seconds by unique user. It’s still very much early days and we’re going to have to figure out ways to plug into that back end of YouTube API.” Adding, “We need to properly measure and communicate those returns for the advertising community.
What’s the reason why podcasting is so big today? It’s because Direct Response has used it as their primary tool. There’s money to be had –and we can do a lot better on this front.
One of the things that’s helped us build our business is looking beyond the podcast. If you want to properly tackle YouTube and TikTok and other new platforms that will inevitably join the fray into the future, we really have to almost take the “podcast” out of the center of our universe.
The theme music for Insider Interviews was composed and performed by the incomparable Grammy-winning John Clayton, and this episode was edited by Grace Morton.
Pierre Bouvard has some words of wisdom for media buyers out there…if you’re not buying audio (yes, all audio), you’re leaving reach and engagement on the table. As Chief Insights Officer at Cumulus Media/Westwood One, Pierre has seen the proof and has busted the myths surrounding audio advertising—and particularly the misconceptions about AM/FM radio.
“Radio is perceived as much smaller than it really is. But the data tells us that ad-supported AM-FM streaming is actually bigger than ad-supported Pandora and Spotify combined. That blows people away.”
After stints at Coleman Insights and TiVo, he has become the audio industry’s most revered evangelist and research mind. Now leading Westwood One’s full-service advisory—the Audio Active Group—he provides advertisers with media planning recommendations, creative best practices, and measurement services.
This episode will certainly delight the research aficionados—and may just convince the audio skeptics. We also dig into:
What we mean when we say ‘audio.’ Pierre breaks down the composition of the entire audio universe.
Tactical scoop about media planning tactics and why an omnichannel approach works best.
What the heck is ‘eyes on glass’ and what does it tell us about the effectiveness of TV?
Pierre’s pragmatic POV on brand purpose reminds brands to go back to basics.
While he does a lot of work recommending media, he drops some facts on why creative trumps everything.
Why it’s time for advertisers to stop testing and start committing budgets to podcast advertising. (Learn about the “5% rule”!)
Plus, hear the story of how Pierre ‘broke the internet’ and E.B.’s voice impression of Bette Midler… Just sayin’.
This was a fun (and extremely informative) conversation. I hope this inspires you to learn more about the power of audio advertising.
Just skim the career path of my first guest for Season 2 of Insider Interviews and you’ll understand why it was worth the wait of my past year on hiatus: It’s Jarl Mohn, former President and CEO of NPR…and E! Entertainment Television, the network he also created!
Jarl’s career includes being hand-picked by former radio buddy, Bob Pittman (currently CEO of iHeart Media), to be the first EVP/GM of MTV and VH1. He also spent many years on the boards of The Annenberg School of Communication and Journalism, the EW Scripps Company and Scripps Networks, and KPCC Southern California Public Radio where he honed his love of public radio.
And, while Jarl hung up his pundit placard to focus on hanging art as he and his wife Pamela endow museums and support emerging artists, his 50+ years in media and venture capital have taught him a thing or two about content and management. He shares 35 minutes of brilliance and humility — from how his years in foster care sparked an escape route to radio, how quality will separate winners and losers in today’s content wars, and how art can literally change the way we think.
We go head to, literally, toe on the big picture of media, right down to why his face is on my feet. Yeah, you’ll have to keep listening for that one. Or watch the video on YouTube, since good content should span all platforms!
The following is a highly edited transcript, including a multitude of links to important resources mentioned.
Career Path – Radio to Television
E.B.:Jarl, you were my first boss in the cable industry.
You started E! Entertainment Television and I was there in the Greg Kinnear and Howard Stern days. Can you share a little chronological route to your career?
Jarl: I began my career as a disc jockey when I was 15 years old. I ended up ultimately, in New York at WNBC doing afternoons when I was 25 then got into the programming side of the business, became a general manager and bought some radio stations. Then one of the people I had worked with at WNBC, Bob Pittman, hired me, along with Tom Preston at MTV and VH1. So, I got into the cable TV business. Then in 1986 we created E! Entertainment Television. I did a stint with John Malone at Liberty Media as CEO of Liberty Digital, which was used to invest in internet companies and some interactive companies. Then venture capital /early stage angel investing for about 16 years.
And then I had been involved in public radio in Los Angeles as a board member of KPCC and had the opportunity to become CEO of NPR nationally, for about six years. I finished up my tour of duty in 2019 and returned to Los Angeles.
Radio as Escape from Foster Care
EB:You shared with me that you had been in a group home in foster care ….
Jarl: It was a very difficult thing to experience. I spend some time with foster youth and young adults in Los Angeles County now and have a chance to talk to a number of them. Almost every one, using different language, wants to know how we survived our PTSD or our trauma. …I hated my existence in that children’s home so much that I discovered radio and listened to it nonstop and fantasized about being one of those cool disc jockeys. So, when I got out at 15, I had a chance to go to engineering school, get my FCC license and began working at a radio station.
EB:Radio is, of course we talk about it as theater of the mind. I just read an amazing memoir called A Place Called Homeby David Ambroz, who actually works at Amazon now, and overcame similar challenges. You both remind us how we all need to support youth so much better and try to improve that world.
The Art of Listening
EB:Jarl, I knew you when you still used your DJ name, Lee Masters…I remember you would regularly walk the halls of E! Entertainment Television, chatting with every employee, every day. That meant the world to everyone I’m still part of the past-employee Facebook group. I even did an episode last season of Insider Interviews with Darren G. Davis who was our department coordinator then and now runs a very successful comic book company called Tidal Wave! So, you really created another family for us.
Jarl: At every company I worked at I found I learned a lot more about what was happening in the company by just walking and asking, ‘what are you working on? What are you getting the biggest kick out of? What are the challenges? And in doing that every day, cumulatively I think it informed me, really helped me do my job better, and it was also a great deal of fun.
EB:You continued that walk the hall approach, but you did it from the skies and the road. Tell us about visiting NPR stations.
Jarl: One of my good friends is also a pilot, and suggested we fly to small NPR stations that no one from corporate had ever visited. We hit 15, 17 stations and got to meet donors and listeners and the station employees and have some great local food. Then I drove from Washington, DC. to Los Angeles and I visited another 20 or more radio stations.
AM/FM Either/Both/Or Public Radio?
EB:A lot of the EV industry folks are saying that AM radio creates interference with electric cars. Are we facing the demise of AM radio?
Jarl: When I made the transition to from AM to FM radio in 1974 if you had asked me the prognosis then I would’ve said everybody had completely written off AM radio at that time. But since then, even recently, there are a number of markets, like Atlanta, where the number one radio station is WSB, an AM radio station. And there are a handful of others. They’re successful because they’re offering something not available anywhere else — whether it’s the Atlanta Braves or a morning personality. [Hear Jarl’s advice on radio programming back in the day.]
But I do think the radio business itself is very, very challenged overall. A lot of it, is self-inflicted wounds, from having commercial loads that are too high, to being very repetitive, and so forth. One of the reasons I love public radio is that it’s providing … news analysis, really audio essays on what’s going on and explaining what’s happened, providing background, some context and storytelling — something different.
I think a lot of the music formats are under siege from Spotify and from satellite radio. The problem is if a lot of people are deserting the broadcast band because of music, your pool of available listeners for an NPR station starts to decline, too. But I think they’re going to hang in a lot longer than anybody else.
EB:You became a member of all 251 NPR stations and got a mug from each one, which are as proudly displayed in your home as your renown art collection!
E.B.: Where you would advise media companies in general on how they need to pivot?
Jarl: What’s happening in the streaming world are these incredible budgets of six, seven, 12 billion a year per company — the economics right now don’t look like they’re working. However, a lot of people seem to enjoy using them. And one of the number one topics of conversations: “What are you watching?” And everybody’s exchanging their lists: “did you see Kaleidoscope on Netflix? Or Slow Horses…? A lot of people are looking at content. The challenge, of course, is how many of these services can you subscribe to?
I believe, regardless of the medium — audio or visual, broadcast radio or podcast, a cable network or on demand, whatever your format or platform, the quality and the differentiation and the uniqueness of what you’re producing is hugely important.
How do you make people aware of what’s available? Really focus on the, the quality of what you’re producing, to make it as interesting and mouthwatering as possible. Good content wins. It’s very expensive to do. That’s why only a few people can do it. (I would also add that I’m not in the trenches every day dealing with this inside a media company like I was when I was. I view it as someone that is kind of close, but not, not in the center anymore.)
Good Content from Diverse Voices
EB:What do you think are the number one or two action steps that any media company or service can really do to help forward DEI and legitimize its brand purpose?
Jarl: I think it’s a hugely important topic for everybody, not just media companies. It’s an issue for museums, for example, which are questioning this historical perspective on white European males in their collection. It’s a huge issue in the art world; the museums aren’t making as much progress as the art world and the galleries are. Some of the new contemporary museums are doing a much better job of doing exhibitions from women and people of color.
I’m not an expert on this, but I think there’s been progress. I think one of the big challenges for every organization has been limited number of people with background or expertise in any particular field, whether it’s broadcast or whether it’s the museum world. And there’s a huge amount of demand for people of color in some of these roles. My personal experience at NPR was bringing people in who were terrific, with a great sensibility, intelligence, doing great work. Now, NPRs a not-for-profit and very quickly somebody comes in and snags them. We’d bring them in, train them in our ways and our sound. And in 18 months or two years, they were off to a much bigger paycheck, which was great for them. But, then you’re back to square one to fill this position. [Hear Insider Interviews Epi 15 with NPR CMO Michael Smith on this topic.]
The Art of Giving
E.B.:You’ve been working to amplify the voices of diverse artists. Can you explain the LAND grants you and your wife, Pamela, have bequeathed?
Jarl: We’ve had the family foundation for 25 years and to have more impact, decided to write fewer checks, but write bigger checks and really get behind projects we really believe in. I’d say 85% of what we do is LA County-based, where we live and it’s around social justice. There are a lot of issues and problems here, but there are also some beautiful things and some beautiful opportunities.
I was chair of the A C L U Southern California for 13 years so that’s a big one. We really believe in civil liberties and the rights of people that really don’t have the kind of representation that they should. We’re in the early stages of figuring out how we’re going to work with foster youth, because of my background. …especially on transition age youths, which is 18 to 24, because a lot of the system ends for them when they get out of high school.
And the arts are really important to me.The Mohn LAND grants is something we just announced with LA Nomadic Division, which does public art. We’re going to do 20 grants over the next five years for emerging artists who have not had any major institution or gallery representation, and who live and work in LA. They’ll create works that will be in their neighborhoods, publicly available, not in a gallery, that will speak to the people in the issues of that community.
We also have been involved for 11 years with the Hammer Museum’s Made in LA exhibition and the Mohn Award for LA emerging artists or under-recognized LA artists. another public not-for-profit space called LAX Art, and of course public radio.
The Art of Creativity
I find art really inspiring and I encourage anybody, regardless of how they feel about it, to try to spend some time with it because it opens up different neural pathways.
Jarl: I always have found if I’m stuck creatively on something, that if I go to a museum and I look at art. I don’t look at a piece of art and go, oh, that makes me think of this, it just, it frees up my mind. I think art is beautiful that way And I’m not just talking about the visual arts. I’m talking about film, music, dance. There are beautiful things happening in culture everywhere.
Also, if I’m really stuck, I like to go look at art that I don’t like, that I don’t understand, that the critics have said great things about, but for whatever reason, doesn’t appeal to me. Because what is it that the people that are far better educated than I am on this subject see in it that I don’t see in it? I find it opens up my mind. If not at that moment it does later. So, my pro tip, for anybody that is in anything creative or has to do problem solving, go to museums regularly and look at stuff and go out of your way to look at things that you might not like.
EB:Well, I think that you also answered one of the rationales for why we need more inclusion and more voices in media, just to bring it full circle, because looking at something that you’re not used to or that doesn’t necessarily resonate with, you could illuminate new ideas as it amplifies fresh voices.
I promised that we would bring it from the head to the toes and just to pay that off, tell everyone why I’m wearing your face on my feet!
Jarl: I don’t want anybody to think I actually had socks made with my face on them. Apparently, they the NPR staff was going to wear these socks for my going away party, but they didn’t arrive until after I had left. So, they were just sitting there. So instead of throwing them out I put it up on Instagram and Facebook and told anybody, if you want a pair let me know. And they went very quickly. I was really surprised, like, who in the world is gonna want these? But it’s just goofy enough that people loved it.
EB:And that turned into “Socktober” like a where’s Waldo and Elf on a shelf meme for a while.
I want to end with a quote from an “All Things Considered” NPR story about happiness.
It said that “if people could change one thing in their lives to be happier, what does the data say? They should choose, they should invest in their relationships with other people.”
So, Jarl, I’d like to say that you’ve made me very happy for joining me and for raising the bar on being a very “humanized” exec who’s made so many people happy.
You can also reach out to be considered for an episode — or suggest questions or a guest — or to have your own bespoke podcast series produced and/or hosted by E.B. Moss. Email us at email@example.com. We’re “hear” for you!
Marc Kidd, CEO of Captivate, lost sleep thinking about the lost foot traffic in office buildings when the pandemic hit. After all, his company specializes in programming the video screens in elevators. But, this son of famed NCAA football coach, Roy Kidd (as in Roy Kidd Stadium), is not one to panic at fourth down. In our conversation for Epi 43 he shared how Captivate evolved its Digital Out of Home (DOOH) offerings to include home and play locations, with an upswing in results for sales and marketers alike.
“There was a high stakes game on a really bad weather day and I said, ‘Dad, it’s raining, the wind’s blowing. What decision are you going to make about the coin toss?’ He said, ‘You don’t worry about the things you can’t control.’ It has always reminded me that there are things in life you have no control over … like a pandemic.”
Marc is not a stranger to having to pivot. Hear what happened when his college plans to work alongside his dad got waylaid… and he briefly considered accounting for a career! Luckily, he found his footing in sports marketing…then broadcasting, giving him the foundation for a storied career that included helping create the NCAA corporate partner program and the Breeders Cup’s World Thoroughbred Championships, WAC corporate partner programs and iHigh.com.
Now at Captivate, he had some tough calls to make in the past two years for the greater good, but like all boats when the tide rises he ultimately helped the elevator advertising business stay the course through more innovation.
Listen and learn about:
How Captivate transfigured awkward social spaces!
The evolution of DOOH (Digital Out of Home) itself and its use in brand and awareness marketing
The guiding path to advertising effectiveness and strategizing content
QR codes and other ways of building real attribution
How COVID-19 disruption prompted forward-thinking repositioning
Captivate’s 2022 plans, including re-engineered programmatic platforms
You can also reach out to be considered for an episode — or suggest questions or a guest — or to have your own bespoke podcast series produced and/or hosted by E.B. Moss. Email us at firstname.lastname@example.org. We’re “hear” for you!
Bart Roselli of Veritone One has seen the audio space grow exponentially in his over 15 years of media, marketing strategy, and account management experience. Now, as SVP Growth, he leverages his breadth of knowledge to enhance agency-media vendor relationships and help ensure client goals are set smartly for the space, and fulfilled across multiple channels of audio opportunities…including having an eye towards integrating Veritone AI technology to enhance performance.
After comparing notes on our common ground of NJ to CA lives, in Episode 41 Bart explains the evolution of audio ad tech to how audio is also bought, sold and marketed differently these days.
“It’s not a one size fits all media world anymore. It used to be radio, print, and tv. Then digital started to evolve and now you have different tracking elements as we’re moving towards a cookieless space. So marketing has evolved.”
Hear how to keep up with all the changes as Bart and I also discuss:
How audio marketing has completely evolved in via multi-touchpoints
Following the dollars via advances in digital tracking
From compliance to engineering, how the backend of Veritone’s digital infrastructure “takes a village”
The changes in how people consume media – including the impact of the pandemic on podcasts – and how brands need to fit into lives and attention spans differently
Embracing change (a la 37 with Joe Jackman) but why Bart says, “If you’re reading about it in the trades you’re behind”
Utilizing artificial intelligence and synthetic voice to super-serve clients (while avoiding “deep fakes!”)
Bart’s stance on the brand and demand continuum
Tapping data as the modern version of a crystal ball to navigate millions of shows to pick up and coming winners and properly message in the right podcasts
The difference between embedded and digital ad insertion – and use cases for each (You can take a deeper dive into ad sales from Bart on the Podcast Advertising Playbook episode with Heather Osgood.)
The reality of CPM pricing and measurement
And overall remembering:
“If you’re not thinking of channels – plural, you’re thinking of audio and your marketing incorrectly and you’re missing a big chunk of audience.”
And big news! You can watch the unedited version of this episode now as video on YouTube!
(Don’t judge my kitchen.)
You can also reach out to be considered for an episode — or suggest questions or a guest — or to have your own bespoke podcast series produced and/or hosted by E.B. Moss. Email us at email@example.com.
Not many people – or brands — love change as much as Joe Jackman. The CEO of Jackman Reinvents has been a valued advisor to major retailers like Staples and brands like Flow Water, to B2B companies and to private equity partners. In this episode hear how he uses insights about trends and human behavior to drive change – or reinvention – and why that’s essential for a brand today.
Jackman believes that moving from town to town as a kid with his retail exec dad emboldened him and taught him relationship skills. To the envy of any who have experienced “imposter complex,” Jackman has confidently embraced change professionally, moving from creative to CMO to CEO, admittedly making it up as he went along at many of the stops along the way. Learn what’s needed for companies to thrive, and the consequences for those that choose to emulate ostriches.
This 40-minute conversation is filled with insights – or, as Jackman calls them when working with clients, “nuggets you can actually hang a strategy off.”
I encourage a full listen, but here are some unmissable elements and Jackman Takeaways:
Change has been coming fast and furious for many years, but the pandemic has compressed the need for speed to do things differently now; not just in people’s lives, but in the dynamics of the marketplace
Jackman Takeaway: “If you’re not changing and evolving, you’re stuck. That would probably be the best scenario. But the more common scenario is you’re moving backwards or, in business terms, you’re waning or dying.”
Joe Jackman explained his personal path and how an appreciation of change took him from creative director to business owner after stints helping launch brands like Joe Fresh (no relation!).
Jackman Takeaway: “I said, why can’t I be a brand strategist? What do I need to know? Who do I need to learn from? And then, eventually, I just thought, ‘Why can’t I shape strategy at the very highest level?”
That attitude led to becoming a “reinventionist” – and the definition thereof:
Jackman Takeaway: “It’s a word I made up, but basically the definition is to just be really good at making change happen and to great benefit. The world needs more people with the skills and in the mindset of making change.”
Jackman’s concept of reinvention is tied to “invention,” and a brand’s transformation is intrinsically tied to its DNA.
We need to collectively “reposition the entire idea of change in our minds as a positive force, and essential. It should be seen as creating the next best, most powerful and relevant version of you or your company.” (He literally wrote the book on this: “Reinventionist Mindset”with a set of five principles for change.)
The status quo – especially when paired with success — is a killer. Business model life cycles, executives’ tenures, the length of brands’ relevance, are all compressing. So, since “the future arrives daily,” brands need to figure out step-by-step how to evolve and “get pro athlete good at it or you have it done to you.”
Learn how Jackman helped Staples create trial stores that were hybrid workspace meets product sampling; and transformed Rexall, including being the first drugstore in Canada to start offering flu shots.
Jackman Takeaway on Retail: “In a world of choice, which is what the internet did to retail, retail was relatively slow to adapt…. There are exceptions, but retail generally sat and was lacking innovation… A lot of disruption was enabled by that sense of ‘oh, maybe one day we’ll evolve, but stores are the thing now…’. If retail leadership was prescient in reading what’s happening, Amazon wouldn’t exist. Casper wouldn’t exist. Netflix wouldn’t exist and there’d be a streaming service called Blockbuster.”
Big Jackman Takeaway: “There’s probably only one rule in all of this work in transformation: That you must deeply understand who your customers are and what they care about most. …beyond function, into the world of emotion. Most marketers focus on the means. Understand what the end is.”
Jackman gives his definition of a brand and why adopting that helps drive trust.
Jackman Takeaway:“A brand equals purpose elevated to experience, delivered consistently. Most companies haven’t got that very well defined, and, and yet, if you look at the evidence, purpose led companies tend to outperform their peers.”
Cohesive messaging and linkage between ideas and all advertising is essential to continue the brand message.
It takes balance and a strong foundation to leverage both brand awareness and demand marketing (and he explains how it relates to dating!)
Jackman Takeaway: “Performance marketing today is important — because it’s data centric and it’s measurable and we can adjust it — …as long as it ladders up to a higher order of purpose. If there’s no red thread that links to that, that’s not good. You can’t build trust. …And today’s measure of success is if I truly have a relationship with the brand.”
Trust, and being in a Values Economy is greatly affecting brands right now.
Sustainability and similar values are amplified more now in our pandemic context and impact how consumers make purchase decisions…There’s a lot of de-selection going on today.”
Jackman also explains the only two consumer choice tiebreakers
Jackman Takeaway: “I’ve helped well north of 50 companies, and along the way I noticed we’re wired as humans to behave in certain ways. One of the things we don’t love is change. … But I observed ways of thinking and doing that enabled success to come faster… I got them down to five. … For example, the first one is ‘seek insight everywhere’.”
Learn to understand cultural currency and even reinvent the old marketing maxim of: ‘I need to pay attention to the customers that I do the most business with.’ (Hint: that’s fine, but you also “don’t want to be a brand or a business that’s like a great aunt: you know, fondly thought of, but never visited.” [That hit a little close to home for this host! Just sayin’.] So, learn to have relevant conversations with the up and coming set of customers [and with, note to self, the nieces and nephews.]
Understand how DEI dovetails with cultural relevance and brand values… and what Jackman would change most about our world. (Note: Hat tip: Maryam Banikarim)
Finally, what brand would Jackman reinvent next?
“What do I want to reinvent? The next company that interests me or has lost its way. And there’s so much of that. How wonderful to spend a career on just figuring out the next act of whatever! And, since climate change is real, and we have to start to make a real difference, those are the kinds of opportunities I’m gravitating towards now. And I’m super excited to be at least part of the solution as best I can.”