Pierre Bouvard has some words of wisdom for media buyers out there…if you’re not buying audio (yes, all audio), you’re leaving reach and engagement on the table. As Chief Insights Officer at Cumulus Media/Westwood One, Pierre has seen the proof and has busted the myths surrounding audio advertising—and particularly the misconceptions about AM/FM radio.
“Radio is perceived as much smaller than it really is. But the data tells us that ad-supported AM-FM streaming is actually bigger than ad-supported Pandora and Spotify combined. That blows people away.”
After stints at Coleman Insights and TiVo, he has become the audio industry’s most revered evangelist and research mind. Now leading Westwood One’s full-service advisory—the Audio Active Group—he provides advertisers with media planning recommendations, creative best practices, and measurement services.
This episode will certainly delight the research aficionados—and may just convince the audio skeptics. We also dig into:
What we mean when we say ‘audio.’ Pierre breaks down the composition of the entire audio universe.
Tactical scoop about media planning tactics and why an omnichannel approach works best.
What the heck is ‘eyes on glass’ and what does it tell us about the effectiveness of TV?
Pierre’s pragmatic POV on brand purpose reminds brands to go back to basics.
While he does a lot of work recommending media, he drops some facts on why creative trumps everything.
Why it’s time for advertisers to stop testing and start committing budgets to podcast advertising. (Learn about the “5% rule”!)
Plus, hear the story of how Pierre ‘broke the internet’ and E.B.’s voice impression of Bette Midler… Just sayin’.
This was a fun (and extremely informative) conversation. I hope this inspires you to learn more about the power of audio advertising.
Just skim the career path of my first guest for Season 2 of Insider Interviews and you’ll understand why it was worth the wait of my past year on hiatus: It’s Jarl Mohn, former President and CEO of NPR…and E! Entertainment Television, the network he also created!
Jarl’s career includes being hand-picked by former radio buddy, Bob Pittman (currently CEO of iHeart Media), to be the first EVP/GM of MTV and VH1. He also spent many years on the boards of The Annenberg School of Communication and Journalism, the EW Scripps Company and Scripps Networks, and KPCC Southern California Public Radio where he honed his love of public radio.
And, while Jarl hung up his pundit placard to focus on hanging art as he and his wife Pamela endow museums and support emerging artists, his 50+ years in media and venture capital have taught him a thing or two about content and management. He shares 35 minutes of brilliance and humility — from how his years in foster care sparked an escape route to radio, how quality will separate winners and losers in today’s content wars, and how art can literally change the way we think.
We go head to, literally, toe on the big picture of media, right down to why his face is on my feet. Yeah, you’ll have to keep listening for that one. Or watch the video on YouTube, since good content should span all platforms!
The following is a highly edited transcript, including a multitude of links to important resources mentioned.
Career Path – Radio to Television
E.B.:Jarl, you were my first boss in the cable industry.
You started E! Entertainment Television and I was there in the Greg Kinnear and Howard Stern days. Can you share a little chronological route to your career?
Jarl: I began my career as a disc jockey when I was 15 years old. I ended up ultimately, in New York at WNBC doing afternoons when I was 25 then got into the programming side of the business, became a general manager and bought some radio stations. Then one of the people I had worked with at WNBC, Bob Pittman, hired me, along with Tom Preston at MTV and VH1. So, I got into the cable TV business. Then in 1986 we created E! Entertainment Television. I did a stint with John Malone at Liberty Media as CEO of Liberty Digital, which was used to invest in internet companies and some interactive companies. Then venture capital /early stage angel investing for about 16 years.
And then I had been involved in public radio in Los Angeles as a board member of KPCC and had the opportunity to become CEO of NPR nationally, for about six years. I finished up my tour of duty in 2019 and returned to Los Angeles.
Radio as Escape from Foster Care
EB:You shared with me that you had been in a group home in foster care ….
Jarl: It was a very difficult thing to experience. I spend some time with foster youth and young adults in Los Angeles County now and have a chance to talk to a number of them. Almost every one, using different language, wants to know how we survived our PTSD or our trauma. …I hated my existence in that children’s home so much that I discovered radio and listened to it nonstop and fantasized about being one of those cool disc jockeys. So, when I got out at 15, I had a chance to go to engineering school, get my FCC license and began working at a radio station.
EB:Radio is, of course we talk about it as theater of the mind. I just read an amazing memoir called A Place Called Homeby David Ambroz, who actually works at Amazon now, and overcame similar challenges. You both remind us how we all need to support youth so much better and try to improve that world.
The Art of Listening
EB:Jarl, I knew you when you still used your DJ name, Lee Masters…I remember you would regularly walk the halls of E! Entertainment Television, chatting with every employee, every day. That meant the world to everyone I’m still part of the past-employee Facebook group. I even did an episode last season of Insider Interviews with Darren G. Davis who was our department coordinator then and now runs a very successful comic book company called Tidal Wave! So, you really created another family for us.
Jarl: At every company I worked at I found I learned a lot more about what was happening in the company by just walking and asking, ‘what are you working on? What are you getting the biggest kick out of? What are the challenges? And in doing that every day, cumulatively I think it informed me, really helped me do my job better, and it was also a great deal of fun.
EB:You continued that walk the hall approach, but you did it from the skies and the road. Tell us about visiting NPR stations.
Jarl: One of my good friends is also a pilot, and suggested we fly to small NPR stations that no one from corporate had ever visited. We hit 15, 17 stations and got to meet donors and listeners and the station employees and have some great local food. Then I drove from Washington, DC. to Los Angeles and I visited another 20 or more radio stations.
AM/FM Either/Both/Or Public Radio?
EB:A lot of the EV industry folks are saying that AM radio creates interference with electric cars. Are we facing the demise of AM radio?
Jarl: When I made the transition to from AM to FM radio in 1974 if you had asked me the prognosis then I would’ve said everybody had completely written off AM radio at that time. But since then, even recently, there are a number of markets, like Atlanta, where the number one radio station is WSB, an AM radio station. And there are a handful of others. They’re successful because they’re offering something not available anywhere else — whether it’s the Atlanta Braves or a morning personality. [Hear Jarl’s advice on radio programming back in the day.]
But I do think the radio business itself is very, very challenged overall. A lot of it, is self-inflicted wounds, from having commercial loads that are too high, to being very repetitive, and so forth. One of the reasons I love public radio is that it’s providing … news analysis, really audio essays on what’s going on and explaining what’s happened, providing background, some context and storytelling — something different.
I think a lot of the music formats are under siege from Spotify and from satellite radio. The problem is if a lot of people are deserting the broadcast band because of music, your pool of available listeners for an NPR station starts to decline, too. But I think they’re going to hang in a lot longer than anybody else.
EB:You became a member of all 251 NPR stations and got a mug from each one, which are as proudly displayed in your home as your renown art collection!
E.B.: Where you would advise media companies in general on how they need to pivot?
Jarl: What’s happening in the streaming world are these incredible budgets of six, seven, 12 billion a year per company — the economics right now don’t look like they’re working. However, a lot of people seem to enjoy using them. And one of the number one topics of conversations: “What are you watching?” And everybody’s exchanging their lists: “did you see Kaleidoscope on Netflix? Or Slow Horses…? A lot of people are looking at content. The challenge, of course, is how many of these services can you subscribe to?
I believe, regardless of the medium — audio or visual, broadcast radio or podcast, a cable network or on demand, whatever your format or platform, the quality and the differentiation and the uniqueness of what you’re producing is hugely important.
How do you make people aware of what’s available? Really focus on the, the quality of what you’re producing, to make it as interesting and mouthwatering as possible. Good content wins. It’s very expensive to do. That’s why only a few people can do it. (I would also add that I’m not in the trenches every day dealing with this inside a media company like I was when I was. I view it as someone that is kind of close, but not, not in the center anymore.)
Good Content from Diverse Voices
EB:What do you think are the number one or two action steps that any media company or service can really do to help forward DEI and legitimize its brand purpose?
Jarl: I think it’s a hugely important topic for everybody, not just media companies. It’s an issue for museums, for example, which are questioning this historical perspective on white European males in their collection. It’s a huge issue in the art world; the museums aren’t making as much progress as the art world and the galleries are. Some of the new contemporary museums are doing a much better job of doing exhibitions from women and people of color.
I’m not an expert on this, but I think there’s been progress. I think one of the big challenges for every organization has been limited number of people with background or expertise in any particular field, whether it’s broadcast or whether it’s the museum world. And there’s a huge amount of demand for people of color in some of these roles. My personal experience at NPR was bringing people in who were terrific, with a great sensibility, intelligence, doing great work. Now, NPRs a not-for-profit and very quickly somebody comes in and snags them. We’d bring them in, train them in our ways and our sound. And in 18 months or two years, they were off to a much bigger paycheck, which was great for them. But, then you’re back to square one to fill this position. [Hear Insider Interviews Epi 15 with NPR CMO Michael Smith on this topic.]
The Art of Giving
E.B.:You’ve been working to amplify the voices of diverse artists. Can you explain the LAND grants you and your wife, Pamela, have bequeathed?
Jarl: We’ve had the family foundation for 25 years and to have more impact, decided to write fewer checks, but write bigger checks and really get behind projects we really believe in. I’d say 85% of what we do is LA County-based, where we live and it’s around social justice. There are a lot of issues and problems here, but there are also some beautiful things and some beautiful opportunities.
I was chair of the A C L U Southern California for 13 years so that’s a big one. We really believe in civil liberties and the rights of people that really don’t have the kind of representation that they should. We’re in the early stages of figuring out how we’re going to work with foster youth, because of my background. …especially on transition age youths, which is 18 to 24, because a lot of the system ends for them when they get out of high school.
And the arts are really important to me.The Mohn LAND grants is something we just announced with LA Nomadic Division, which does public art. We’re going to do 20 grants over the next five years for emerging artists who have not had any major institution or gallery representation, and who live and work in LA. They’ll create works that will be in their neighborhoods, publicly available, not in a gallery, that will speak to the people in the issues of that community.
Initial recipients of MOHN LAND GRANTS
We also have been involved for 11 years with the Hammer Museum’s Made in LA exhibition and the Mohn Award for LA emerging artists or under-recognized LA artists. another public not-for-profit space called LAX Art, and of course public radio.
The Art of Creativity
I find art really inspiring and I encourage anybody, regardless of how they feel about it, to try to spend some time with it because it opens up different neural pathways.
Jarl: I always have found if I’m stuck creatively on something, that if I go to a museum and I look at art. I don’t look at a piece of art and go, oh, that makes me think of this, it just, it frees up my mind. I think art is beautiful that way And I’m not just talking about the visual arts. I’m talking about film, music, dance. There are beautiful things happening in culture everywhere.
Also, if I’m really stuck, I like to go look at art that I don’t like, that I don’t understand, that the critics have said great things about, but for whatever reason, doesn’t appeal to me. Because what is it that the people that are far better educated than I am on this subject see in it that I don’t see in it? I find it opens up my mind. If not at that moment it does later. So, my pro tip, for anybody that is in anything creative or has to do problem solving, go to museums regularly and look at stuff and go out of your way to look at things that you might not like.
EB:Well, I think that you also answered one of the rationales for why we need more inclusion and more voices in media, just to bring it full circle, because looking at something that you’re not used to or that doesn’t necessarily resonate with, you could illuminate new ideas as it amplifies fresh voices.
I promised that we would bring it from the head to the toes and just to pay that off, tell everyone why I’m wearing your face on my feet!
Jarl: I don’t want anybody to think I actually had socks made with my face on them. Apparently, they the NPR staff was going to wear these socks for my going away party, but they didn’t arrive until after I had left. So, they were just sitting there. So instead of throwing them out I put it up on Instagram and Facebook and told anybody, if you want a pair let me know. And they went very quickly. I was really surprised, like, who in the world is gonna want these? But it’s just goofy enough that people loved it.
EB:And that turned into “Socktober” like a where’s Waldo and Elf on a shelf meme for a while.
I want to end with a quote from an “All Things Considered” NPR story about happiness.
It said that “if people could change one thing in their lives to be happier, what does the data say? They should choose, they should invest in their relationships with other people.”
So, Jarl, I’d like to say that you’ve made me very happy for joining me and for raising the bar on being a very “humanized” exec who’s made so many people happy.
You can also reach out to be considered for an episode — or suggest questions or a guest — or to have your own bespoke podcast series produced and/or hosted by E.B. Moss. Email us at podcasts@mossappeal.com. We’re “hear” for you!
Get ready! Here’s what to expect for the next season of interviews featuring leading media, marketing and ad execs who share the “insider’s scoop” on the industry.
HINT: Expect to hear from renown leaders like Jarl Mohn who ran NPR and Mary Baglivo who ran Saatchi & Saatchi, to NFL marketers like Jen Kavanagh and Marissa Solis, to CMOs like Linda Bethea of Danone. Season 2 of Insider Interviews will be jam packed, so please follow now, or subscribe wherever you like to listen to #podcasts. But all of the Season 1 episodes are still informative for anyone interested in learning from major brands, publishers and media pros!
Oh, and if you’re curious, you’ll learn what E.B. was up to in 2022 while Insider Interviews was on hiatus. She’s available for more content marketing for your company, including getting you started with your own B2B podcast!
I had the good fortune of being asked by NATPE – the global trade association focused on the business of content, to help produce the first ever conference in the media/marketing industry dedicated to the topic of iterating IP from podcasting to TV and back again.
What the heck does that mean? Well, it’s basically around how TV shows are turning into podcasts to find new audiences and podcasting content has turned into TV shows and films. Think Homeland, Dirty John, even Dirty Diana! So of course I made myself one of the moderators (oh, and a did a little co-hosting with actor Amy Hill (“Magnum, P.I.”)).
But I wanted my panel to feel a little more like a podcast. So you’ll hear some mini-1:1s with major insights from Steve Wilson, Chief Strategy Officer of QCode Media, Shaleen Desai, SVP of Adult Series for Warner Brothers Animation and their Blue Ribbon Content podcast division, Juleyka Lantigua-Williams (yes, from my “bonus episode,”) of Lantigua-Williams & Co., and Glynn Washington, Host/Executive Producer of Snap Judgment Studios.
There’s good news/bad news:
This conference streams free on July 14,2021. If you missed the full four hour event you’ll want to join NATPE and to play that – and their myriad other conference about the content business, on demand. The good news is that at least you can hear some of THIS panel right here. The bad news? The audio is lifted right off of the conference recording. So some of the quality of the sound might not be perfect, but the quality of the content is excellent.
With that, hear why I called this a panel of over-achievers who will wow you with their accomplishments, and their insights.
Lantigua-Williams: I am the founder of Lantigua-Williams & Co. We’re an independent podcast and film studio, and we adopted the slogan erasing the margins earlier this year, after three years of thinking about what it is that we want to do in the world. And that seemed to fit. We try to tell stories that make it really complicated to put things and people in boxes.
Washington: My name is Glynn Washington. I am the host of Snap Judgment and Snap Judgement Studios. We created the shows Spooked, Heaven’s Gate and Snap Judgement.
Wilson: I’m Steve Wilson. I’m chief strategy officer at QCode Media. We specialize in making original scripted fiction podcasts. We’re really trying to tell new stories, with amazing creators and see them become the next wave of content that we all love in the world.
Desai: I’m Shaleen Desai the senior vice president of Animation at Warner Brothers Animation. I also oversee our company’s scripted podcasts initiative for Warner Media.
Transcript:
Moss: Steve, you spent 15 years at Apple, you’re a font of knowledge. I think that you’re probably putting that to good use at QCode, which is a relatively newer to the industry. So, I wanted to start with you so that you’d give us some building blocks. What inspired you to join QCode and skip retiring with the ‘gold Apple watch’?
Wilson: Well, I certainly did enjoy my time at Apple, working with partners in the content space. I did editorial and partner relations and marketing for apple podcasts for some time. In working with partners, always envisioned myself, going to the publisher side, having the opportunity to, not just be on the platform side, but really work with original stories and amazing partners. Got to work with everyone in the podcast industry, some incredible people, including the panelists here. And, as I looked across the industry, I was fascinated by what QCode was doing.
The company that started about two years ago by a former agent named Rob Herting. And Rob had seen time and again how Hollywood can be risk-averse, and it can be challenging, to start new stories. QCode was founded to try to build new properties and audio experiences for people that the world had never heard before.
And something I’d point out at the top is it’s interesting in all the media that we consume how, fiction plays a really big role — except for in podcasts; fiction tends to be a smaller portion of podcast consumption, and we really see there’s there being a huge opportunity to expand in that area. So, I just had to jump at the chance to join QCode.
Moss: So it’s safe to say that you are bullish on narrative audio. When you and the team are deciding on that content do you do it with an eye to the long tail? How well will it get monetized and will it, you know, play in Peoria and across other platforms?
Wilson: Well, it’s a consideration. We want to tell amazing original stories that there are audiences for that can be really niche and specific content and different verticals. We are building content that’s all different genres — sci-fi through even female erotica, like our show with Demi Moore called Dirty Diana. We think broadly about the different interest areas consumers have. And then when it comes to things like derivatives and TV and film, that’s a consideration though we are primarily focused to ensure that the podcasts that we make is going to work on its own. And we turned down projects that won’t work as a podcast. So we do think about the holistic view of the stories and the content that’s being told though.
Moss: So, it’s not just QCode developing and finding the product, but it’s also those coming to you and you’re looking at it all through that lens of first will it play as a podcast?
Wilson: A hundred percent. Some of them come in as original podcast ideas. Others came from different forms of media to begin with. So, the Left Right Game, for example, was a viral Reddit thread that we developed as a podcast, and it’s now in development, with Amazon. And, we have other projects as well, like Dirty Diana came in as a book. So sometimes the idea for the podcast actually originates in another media type and becomes a podcast and then can go be that other media type as well.
Moss: I want to do something that’s common in marketing podcasts: a little cross-promotion. I want to give props to AdLandia. It’s a great B2B podcast about the industry, (unless you think insider interviews is even better!) You were just on that episode last month and it was packed with great information — and the hosts quoted Malcolm Gladwell, who said, ‘we think with our eyes and feel with our ears.’ Is that also how QCode approaches projects?
Wilson: Yeah, I think so. Of course, Malcolm Gladwell’s is a brilliant person to quote and put things so eloquently. You know, we definitely take a lot of pride in how we put our projects together. So Q code, um, you know, really one of our pillars is rich sound design. We invest heavily in that area. We have a head of music. Is incredible, you know, classically trained pianist, a guy named Darren Johnson. He was touring with Paula Abdul and discovered by Miles Davis. Has done all kinds of work in TV and film, and he’s the one who scores, uh, our podcasts. We also partnered with Adobe on Atmos and Dolby Atmos isn’t even really supported across the industry yet on the distribution side We’ve pre produced all of our contents to really have that immersive sound because we believe that sort of elevates and takes the stories to the next level.
And we’re seeing an increase in that side too, just in the way that TV and film progressed from, you know, television sets and, you know, CTRs up through, you know, 4k HDR. We’re seeing that same increase in audio quality. And we, we make that a core part of the projects we make.
When David Cohen joined the IAB as President, the US was two weeks into stay-at-home mandates. While that may have curtailed in-person conferences the industry association is known for, it upped the focus on all things digital. Not long after, the ante was also upped for Cohen personally when he was named CEO following the 14 year run of Randall Rothenberg. Pressure? Not to hear Cohen, who has helmed major agency divisions and had $20B in media spending under his purview during his days at MAGNA and UM. But pandemic-influenced strategy changes? Definitely.
In support of its mission to “empower the media and marketing industries to thrive in the digital economy” – let alone during a COVID economy — Cohen has “brought an unprecedented number of industry captains into their leadership councils and transformed the timeliness of their strategic initiatives.”
Those words from Rothenberg’s commendation of Cohen on his promotion sparked a song from me. Of course. No one is safe. But that didn’t curtail a compelling conversation about more serious matters, such as Cohen telling me about the advantages that came with adapting to the digital world as early as the 90’s and how he – and the IAB overall – are continuing to innovate with today’s current technologies for marketers. I also put Cohen in the same hot seat he put recent panelists in when moderating a Reach Conference talk himself, asking what he would most like to see fixed in our current digital eco-sphere.
Cohen moderating Reach Conference panel
We also discuss:
Cohen’s A-ha! Moment – from the Yellow Pages!
The lessons he learned after joining the IAB family that every marketing agency should know
“Pulse studies” on changes in consumer consumption trends to media buyers/seller polls
The IAB’s Brand Disruption Summit
How to navigate through your Brand and Demand goals
The shift in how digital engagement is being accomplished
How IAB is helping in pushing cross-platform forward
Like his friend and recent Insider Interviews guest, Carl Fremont, Cohen has a pro-social personal mission. Hear how he — and ANA’s Bill Tucker — are helping push support of disadvantaged children.
Please share the podcast and share how smart you are about media, marketing and advertising! To reach out to be considered for an episode or suggest questions or a guest — or to have your own bespoke podcast series produced and/or hosted by E.B. Moss — email podcasts@mossappeal.com. We’re “hear” for you!
Tom Webster, SVP of Edison Research, describes his job as “telling the stories of numbers.” He definitely make numbers come alive, and he’s a great storyteller overall. So you’re generally okay with Tom as your guest if you didn’t discuss podcast topics in advance.
My industry acquaintance may be self-effacing, but he has a steel trap mind for the insights Edison regularly uncovers about all things audio, and he shared quite a few in our ad hoc but fascinating conversation for Insider Interviews.
The custom market research company helmed by Larry Rosin may be best known as the sole providers of exit polling data during U.S. elections, but Tom is best known for his big research reveals on webinars (now Zoom presentations) or at conferences. Research junkies lean in to hear which platform has the biggest “share of ear” and how differently are consumers engaging with Alexa. Basically, he’s the go-to guy for sharing and interpreting our evolving involvement with radio, podcasting, voice…even IoT and our social media habits.
As Tom describes it, “I make sure that the data that we collect on behalf of our clients is understood contextualized, put into action and valued, and that people come back for more.” Here’s what’s “more” about Tom and a topline of our discussion: Little known fact? Tom likes words as well as numbers. This former English Lit professor is also the principal author of some widely cited studies and the co-author of The Infinite Dial, America’s longest-running research series on digital media consumption, and The Mobile Commerce Revolution.
In Episode 16, Tom shares some insider scoop from Edison’s audio research – and his considered POV on the current state of radio broadcasting and the growth of podcasting (including some tips that can help you grow your own podcast).
[00:01 – 03:25] Opening Segment
More about Tom Webster, his role in Edison Research and a moving from academia to a marketing career
[03:26 – 17:20] The Insider Scoop on Audio Research
About Edison Research’s broader offerings – like that exit poll and vote count data – and Tom’s area of focus: Audio
More insider scoop from Tom WebsterVoice vs. Audio
The growth of “smart speakers.”
Where are we – if anywhere — with an FM chip for mobile phones?
The general state of radio
The uptake on podcasting (Joe Rogan notwithstanding)
Tom talks about some Edison partnerships (and E.B. held back “insider” jokes about her old boss, John Rosso of Triton Digital!)
[17:21 – 25:40] Diverse Voices
The diversity in podcast listeners and podcast content
Growing your podcast in today’s competitive market:
Having a distinct voice
Showing your unique, distinct point of view
How Tom is sharing HIS unique POV, via his own newsletter I Hear Things
Please share the podcast if you liked this episode, and Follow Insider Interviews on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook.
And reach out to be considered for an episode — or suggest questions or a guest — or to have your own bespoke podcast series produced and/or hosted by E.B. Moss, please reach out at podcasts@mossappeal.com. I’m “hear” for you!
It said that “if people could change one thing in their lives to be happier, what does the data say? They should choose, they should invest in their relationships with other people.” 
